What if we told you that the expectations and roles dictated for men and women in marriage, some dating back to the 1950s, still resonate today? Try to keep an open mind as we embark on an enlightening discourse about these traditional roles, their impact, and the fatigue that comes from attempting to fulfill such ideals. We'll revisit the 'Good Wife's Guide' from 1955 and discuss how some of these expectations might have evolved, yet continue to exist in various forms, influencing a woman's sense of self.
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We're Sean and Candace Tambagahan and this is the Mission of Marriage Podcast! Have you ever been at a crossroads in your marriage, wondering if there's any hope for restoration? We've walked through some rocky patches ourselves. Our marital journey has taught us about perseverance, grace, and the infinite love of God. And it's these lessons we strive to share with you, to help navigate the trials and tribulations of marriage. We don't claim to have all the answers, but we do have some tools and insights that might just help you on your journey.
What if we told you that the expectations and roles dictated for men and women in marriage, some dating back to the 1950s, still resonate today? Try to keep an open mind as we embark on an enlightening discourse about these traditional roles, their impact, and the fatigue that comes from attempting to fulfill such ideals. We'll revisit the 'Good Wife's Guide' from 1955 and discuss how some of these expectations might have evolved, yet continue to exist in various forms, influencing a woman's sense of self.
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We're Sean and Candace Tambagahan and this is the Mission of Marriage Podcast! Have you ever been at a crossroads in your marriage, wondering if there's any hope for restoration? We've walked through some rocky patches ourselves. Our marital journey has taught us about perseverance, grace, and the infinite love of God. And it's these lessons we strive to share with you, to help navigate the trials and tribulations of marriage. We don't claim to have all the answers, but we do have some tools and insights that might just help you on your journey.
My name is Sean, I'm Candice and this is the Mission of Marriage podcast.
Speaker 2:We talk about a Christian perspective on having a better marriage. Hi Candice, hi you ready for today's podcast?
Speaker 1:Yes, I'm a little tired today, but yes, I'm ready.
Speaker 2:Before we start, can I read you something?
Speaker 1:Yes.
Speaker 2:So this is from May of 1955. 1955. There's a magazine called Housekeeping Monthly and they published an article entitled the Good Wife's Guide, detailing all the ways that a wife should act and how best she can be a partner to her husband and mother to her children. And so they list 18 different things. I'm not going to read all 18 of them, I'm just going to select the 15 of my favorite. Okay, number one have dinner ready. Plan ahead Even the night before to have a delicious meal ready on time for his return. This is a way of letting him know that you've been thinking about him and you are concerned about his needs. Most men are hungry when they come home and the prospect of a good meal, especially his favorite dish, is part of a warm welcome that's needed. Interesting. Number two this one Rule three is to prepare yourself. So make sure when I get home, you take 15 minutes to rest so you'll be refreshed when I arrive. Touch up your makeup, put a ribbon in your hair and be fresh looking.
Speaker 1:A ribbon.
Speaker 2:He has just been with a lot of work. Weary people I don't want to look at some frumpy person, I guess.
Speaker 1:Oh, my goodness.
Speaker 2:Rule five clear away the clutter. Make one last trip through the main part of the house just before your husband arrives, gather up school books, toys, paper, etc. Then put a dust cloth over the tables Over the cooler months. I like this is a rule six over the cooler months, you should prepare a light fire for him to unwind by. Your husband will feel he has reached a haven and a rest and order, and it'll give you a lift too. So catering for his comfort will provide you with immense personal satisfaction. Oh, I didn't know if you knew that. Oh, listen to this one about the kids. Children are little treasures and I'd like to see them playing the part.
Speaker 1:Oh, wow.
Speaker 2:Minimize all noise at the time of my arrival. Eliminate all noise of the washer, dryer or vacuum. Try to encourage the children to be quiet. What, assuming I'm vacuuming, this is like. Who is this guy coming home like to have these issues? Okay, hold on, be happy to see me. So, number nine, free me with a warm smile and show sincerity in your desire to please me and listen to me. Oh, listen to this one. You may have a dozen important things to tell him, but the moment of his arrival is not the time. Okay, let him talk first. Remember his topics of conversation are more important than yours.
Speaker 2:Make the evening his. Never complain if he comes home or if he comes home late or goes out to dinner or other places of entertainment without you and try and instead try to understand his world of strain and pressure and his very real need to be at home and just relax A couple more, even complain if he's late home for dinner or even if he stays out all night.
Speaker 2:All night, all night. Count this as minor compared to what he might have gone through in that day. Oh Okay, people are. Make him comfortable. Have him lean back in a comfortable chair or have him lie down in the bedroom, have a cool or warm drink ready for him, arrange his pillow and offer to take off his shoes. Speak in a low, soothing and pleasant voice. Don't ask him questions about his actions or question his judgments of integrity. Remember he is the master of the house and, as such, will always exercise his will of faithful, a fairness and truthfulness. You have no right to question him. And the last one is a good wife always knows her place. This is insane, wow 1955?
Speaker 2:1955. Like we know people who were alive at this time, it's not that long ago. I mean, it's long ago, but this like a generation ago. I don't know how much of this is true. I've seen this before. I feel like this is just crazy. This is like handmade tail type stuff. So tonight we're talking about men and women's roles.
Speaker 1:Yes.
Speaker 2:Okay, and so I think, when I, when we say that like what, is the women's role.
Speaker 1:That's everything is perfect. There you go. I think we should just end the podcast, right here.
Speaker 2:I think when we talk about like women's roles and men leading in the home, I feel like the knee jerk reaction, like people think that that type of stuff and that's not what we're talking about Clearly, yeah, but like how many of these things? What would you do if I was like dead serious, looking in the face and gave you any one of these rules?
Speaker 1:No, you know, it's actually kind of funny because I remember a woman leader in the church at one point kind of said some of those things to the other women Like this is how you need to present yourself to your husband when they come home. So I was just like, okay, you know, and I kind of like took that as like, yeah, that's what we're supposed to do, and I for a time period I kind of was trying to fit in those shoes, trying and failing epically, but but yeah, but it was exhausting, it was so exhausting.
Speaker 2:And so you wait, I'm not going to ask who will ask offline, but okay, so I don't know if I ever knew this, that you people in the church are actually talking like this today.
Speaker 1:Okay, yeah, not quite this extreme. Not every.
Speaker 2:Not every there's but basically like make sure that you're.
Speaker 1:It was one out of like a ton of women that I've listened to. So it's not.
Speaker 2:It's not but like the example of like be presentable when your husband comes home and try it was yeah it was more of like not well, there was some.
Speaker 1:There actually was another woman who did talk about getting up and taking a shower and doing your makeup and dressing appropriately so that when your husband comes home he's still attracted to you, type thing. And then I've also heard of when they come home like kind of keep the kids quiet, make it less chaotic, kind of set the atmosphere right.
Speaker 2:And so like, and none of that's like bad advice. Like if I were to tell the same on the shoe on the other foot. Like to tell the guy like hey, look, if your wife's coming home and you've been with the kids all day and she's been stressing or whatever, like you know, take care of yourself, don't look like a fat slob, but you know it'd be disgusting. Like you want to be attractive to your wife. Like I would tell a guy that. But it's not like the. The. The extreme is like no, no women. Are these like presentable?
Speaker 1:Yeah, you're just there for his pleasure, and that's it Right, so he's the one working.
Speaker 2:He's bringing home the bacon. He's got all. He's the important one in the household doing all of the things and your job is to just make his life easier when he gets home. Yeah, yeah, that's not what we're talking about. When we're talking about knowing your role, we're talking about men and women's roles in the in the home.
Speaker 2:Before we can get into that, human beings love extremes and so like this in the 50s, this article, this is like an extreme and this is perpetuating chauvinism with a patriarchy, whatever you want to call it. But the extreme swing to the other side of feminism or extreme feminism, or where men and women don't have distinct roles and there are no standards and everybody just got to be this chaos. You just figure it out on your own. That's not helpful either, and so, biblically, for Christians, we do want to follow what the biblical pattern is for what men and women's roles are in the in the home. And the fact is, you could deny it if you want. You cannot accept it, you don't have to like it, but the fact is men and women are different. Men and women are different and those differences are beautiful. They can be beautiful or they can be extremely complicated and really difficult to navigate if you're not doing it right, if Christ isn't the censor or if we're swinging to one side of the pendulum or the other.
Speaker 2:And so there's this passage I just want to read this passage in Ephesians 5. And some people get caught up in this and have issue with it. But Ephesians 5, 22 submit to one another out of reference for Christ. So a lot of times people leave that mutual submission. So there's this first submit to one another and kind of flesh, is what that out, what that looks like for wives and husbands.
Speaker 2:Who wives submit to your husbands as you do to the Lord or as unto the Lord, for the husband is the head of the wife, as Christ Is the head of the church, his body, of which he is the Savior. Now, as the church submits to Christ, so also wives should submit to their husbands and everything. Husbands love your wives. Just as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her to make her holy, cleansing her by the washing with water through the word, and to present her to himself as a radiant church, without staying or wrinkle or any other blemish, but holy and blameless. In this same way husbands ought to love their wives as their own body. So he starts with submit to one another.
Speaker 2:Then he talks about what that mutual submission looks like for wives submitting to their husbands, husbands loving their wives, and then he continues with the husband. He who loves his wife loves himself. After all, no one hated their own body, but they feed and care for their body, just as Christ does for the church, for we are members of his body. For this reason, a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh.
Speaker 2:This is a profound mystery, but I'm talking about Christ in the church. However, each one of you also must love his wife as he loves himself, and the wife must respect her husband. So when I look at that list from the fifties, is that the way Christ loves his church? Right? If Jesus is our main example of what true leadership looks like? And I'm not going to read it, but that we know the Proverbs 31, woman and the virtuous woman. And so the bottom line is that Kanes and I, we do have a traditional view on men and women's roles in the house, that men are to lead in the home.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:But what does that look like? I think that's the big question is what does it look like for a man to lead in the home, especially in today's society with all of the complexities and everybody's got a unique situation? We're not like in the 50s to where a single person is very hard for one person to be the primary or sole bread earner. Cost of living is so much higher that we just live in a different age, and so what is leading in the home actually look like in today's society?
Speaker 1:Yeah, so I think that Jesus was the perfect example of the leader of the church, which is what the men are supposed to be in the home. He was a servant, he served the church, he loved the church, he had them equally, just on mission with him and serving people. So I think that there was definitely this equality that Jesus had with the church and also him serving the church and not being like, hey, I'm the lead and everybody just needs to follow me.
Speaker 2:Yeah, Christ's version of Lordship, and he talks about this that the people of this world lord it over you. But you don't do that. The way you lead is by serving, and he gives us the ultimate example of servant leadership. And so the way Christ leads the church is by serving. He says I didn't come to be served but to serve, and so like okay, so we'll talk about earning. So this is a big thing. So like does the man leading in the home mean that he needs to be the primary or sole bread earner, one bringing home all the money?
Speaker 1:No, I don't think that. I think that, like you said, right now, it's like kind of really hard for there to be one spouse at home, but um, but either way, even if the woman is um making more money, she has a career and um the husband just doesn't bring as much, that doesn't mean that he is any less of the leader in the home.
Speaker 2:And I think that there comes a point in time where there's um the respect you know what I mean Um, so so yeah, and I think that if true leadership means that you have to be the primary provider, uh, of all of the finances in the home, then Jesus was disqualified of being a leader because he was definitely not the richest person in the group.
Speaker 1:Yeah, correct.
Speaker 2:And, and in fact, Jesus was financially dependent upon the gifts of women who funded the ministry. Um, and the same thing with pastors. Pastors have no qualms about being the leader of the church, but there's very likely that the pastor is not the richest person in the church and so bringing in all of the money and the provision doesn't necessarily make you a leader.
Speaker 2:Now I think that the primary weight of providing like there should be a direction and there should be leadership We'll talk about that, but I don't think that the leader brings in the vision, the direction of the family, where they're going.
Speaker 1:What do like? Where? Like? Hey, I'm taking you, bride, on as my partner. This is where we're going, this is where I'm leading you. This is where I'm taking you. You're leaving your father and mother. I'm leaving my father and mother. We're, we're coming together, becoming one, and this is where we're going. So you know, he's the one with the vision. It has nothing to do with finances.
Speaker 2:So I was in premarital counseling with a couple who was seeking to be married and that was one of the questions that I asked because I had some serious doubts about this, how this was going to work out. Because I asked the and I'm not trying to persuade people one way or another, just give them perspective and if the husband is leading in the end in this, this particular couple, they did believe in that male headship and the husband needs to lead the family, I asked. I said where are you going? And I looked at the woman. I said you better have that question answered, because if you're marrying this person, they're taking you somewhere. So it's good to find out where is the destination.
Speaker 2:So leadership is not necessarily making all the money. It's not necessarily. I call all the shots and, and, and I you're cleaning the house and doing and, and these are your chores and these are my responsibilities. Leading simply means this you have a vision and a direction, you're going there and people are following, and I think that most of the issues that we've dealt with with couples that are struggling is men who have no vision for the family. They have no direction for the family. In fact, they think their only way of leading is by bringing in the money and the money yeah.
Speaker 2:I'm working.
Speaker 1:And that's like the bear, like that's just the bare minimum of what you know. You need just money to survive. Like that's not where you're going in life.
Speaker 2:Well, first, timothy five eight says anyone who doesn't provide for their relatives, especially for their own household, has denied the faith and is worse than an unbeliever.
Speaker 2:So if you think that your sole job as being the husband is leading by providing is like no, that's the bare minimum, like if you don't do that, then you're worse than unbelievers. Second, thessalonians three says that when we were with you, we gave you this rule the one who's not willing to work shouldn't eat, and so that's just kind of like a given that you're not supposed to be lazy, that you should be working. But if you think that that's your only, that's the only way that I have to lead my family is by hey, I'm working, aren't I? And then I get to I'm man, you're a woman. I say you do. That's not leadership. You have to have a vision for the family, you have to have a direction for the family and you're going in that direction and people are following, and the vast majority of women and I don't care if they say they don't want this or they deny it, the vast majority of women that we talked to, we counsel with, are craving for a leader to rise up in their husband when they don't see it.
Speaker 1:And in the church too.
Speaker 1:I mean, you see so many women being the main leaders in the church and their husbands are at home and you know, and they're introverts or whatever the case is, and so you know, but the women desperately want the men, their husbands, to step up. And it's not like, hey, I need you to come in and lead me, but it's necessarily like I want you to come in and lead with me, like let's be on the same page, let's be equally leading together. You know, yeah, I think that that's super important.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so so the husband being the head of the household and we have to clearly define these terms, because when I say that, people think the 1955 article that's not what we're talking about. It's not. I'm man, you're woman, I say you do. It's having a vision for the family going in a direction and your family's following.
Speaker 1:You're leading in the household, but I do want to say, but there is a level. It's clear in scripture. You can't go around it. It's biblical. If the husband does like make a decision, then there needs to be some respect from the women to trust their husbands to be the leader that God's called them to be in the home. And so that may look like you're not always going to agree, but I think that there's a way, like just using us as an example.
Speaker 1:If Sean has to make a decision, he's not going to make that decision lightly and he's always going to come to me and talk to me about it and hear my viewpoint on it, and then in the end he will make a decision and I trust. I trust him and I also trust that God's leading him and he's going to be ultimately accountable to God in the end. And that frees me to be like, okay, I don't have to control the situation. He's going to be accountable to God for the decision he's making and I just trust. And the other thing is, you've made it easy for me to trust your leadership. If you have a husband that is not, you can't trust his leadership, because track record shows that he's just doesn't make the right decisions, and that's the that's counsel for it.
Speaker 2:So there's, if you guys are in a marriage and I've tried to have him lead, and every time he leads us in a ditch and it's not just the will of the Lord and you're going through a struggle, it's because you're making stupid decisions and you have like can't it sing, a poor track record. That might be a reason why it's very hard to follow you. People don't follow who they don't trust. Right, jesus is the good shepherd. He says my sheep know my voice, I know them and they follow me. We follow Jesus because we trust him, we know him. He's good.
Speaker 2:And if you, as the husband, are trying to shepherd your family, lead your family, but every time you do or on one hand maybe you're not you're advocating your responsibility and you're passing the buck over to your wife. You don't know you make the decision, you do this and you're just kind of passively sitting by and not having a vision for the family, letting her lead in all of those ways. And then all of a sudden, you're trying to make a decision and try to call the shot. It's like no, that's where that chauvinism comes in. Or you're trying to lord over by positional authority rather than earning it. And so I want to read this from Genesis 2, the Lord God in the beginning, right Genesis 2, the Lord God took the man, so he's not in the picture yet. He took the man, placed him in the garden to work and to watch over it. He commanded the man. So the Lord gives Adam, he gives him work, he gives him responsibility. Then he gives him a command. He says you're free to eat from any of the tree in the garden, but you must not eat from the tree of knowledge of good and evil, for on the day you eat of it you'll certainly die. Then the Lord God said it is not good for man to be alone. So Eve's not in the picture yet. So Adam has work given to him before Eve. He has a command given to him before Eve. And then Adam has to give that command to his wife.
Speaker 2:And then in Genesis 3, what happens is the serpent comes in and he's the most cunning of all the wild animals that the Lord God had made and he usurps the created order. He doesn't go to Adam. Who does he go to? He goes to the woman and he says that God really say you can't eat from any tree in the garden. We know that's not what God said. He says you can eat from all the trees, just only from this one. And then women said we may eat from the fruit of the trees in the garden, but about the fruit of the tree in the middle of the garden, god said you must not eat it or touch it. So she adds to the commandment I don't know if Adam added that and gave it to her or she just added that on her own, but there was something missing in the commandment.
Speaker 2:And we know the story that the, the devil, who is the serpent you serve, the created order Bypasses the head of the home, goes straight to the woman. There's something lost in the translation of the commandment to the woman and Eve was deceived. It says and then Adam sinned. And when Jesus went, when God comes, who does he call out? He calls out Adam. He doesn't call out Eve. He says Adam, where are you? And Adam Does what a lot of men do Passes the buck over to his wife. You being the head of the home means that you don't get to push the blame over to your wife for whatever goes wrong.
Speaker 1:Yeah, correct.
Speaker 2:It might be her fault.
Speaker 1:Like you listen.
Speaker 2:Your responsibility because it says that he get. She gave to her husband who was with her.
Speaker 2:Yeah and he ate. So Adam's sitting there passively, like a lot of men are doing. They're passively just watching and and letting their wife be led by wherever, or letting their wife lead, not saying a thing and then taking of the fruit he knows better. The command was given directly to him, the responsibility, the accountability was given directly to him, and God does not call out the the wife, he calls out Adam, adam. So you being the head of the home doesn't mean I'm man, your woman, I say you do. It means I don't get to say God, it was this woman that you gave to me. Is know the accountability, the responsibility is on me.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:So I don't have strong opinions outside of that.
Speaker 2:But so the point is, what is leadership? Having a vision for the family? And so that doesn't mean that. So it like, yes, men and women, there's some Challenges that people are gonna face. So some people have traditional views like, okay, the man works, and then he works, and he comes home and the house is dirty, god forbid. Right, the house is dirty, kids are, you know, they're not prepped and proper, like the 1955 article says, and but that's been an issue right in some people's homes. Like I'm working all day and yeah, how do you Address that without sounding like a chauvinist, without making a pass like what do you? What do you even do?
Speaker 1:so I've talked about this with people before. I think that when you determine who's doing what in the home, right, because every household is different for me and Shawn, he, he works and I work, but not a full-time job like he does. So I stay home, I've the one to raise the kids and take care of the home, so that's my job and so I look at it as hey. If I go into a job and they're like hey, do these tasks, and the boss comes in says why aren't these tasks done, you know it's like Keep in mind, she's not saying I'm the boss and no, no, no, no.
Speaker 1:I'm just saying I look at it as like my house is my, that is that's my, what I'm called to do and and called to take care of the home.
Speaker 1:I'm called to raise my children. I'm called to and there's a sense of like your children when you're raising your kids. If you have a messy home, it's also Not sanitary for your children like. So there's some time, there's a standard of Sanitation and cleanliness and, and so if, if both people are working full-time, then you have to discuss hey, what are we gonna do? Like? Because dishes need to be done, laundry needs to be done, all these things need to be done, and so you guys got to figure out how to share the load.
Speaker 2:So what Candice is saying is like whatever you do, whether you eat or drink or whatever it is, do it with excellence and so if the if your situation is one like Candice in mind, to where she does work, she she helps me run the business, but she's not, you know, 40 plus hours per week in the business like I am. You know I'm I have to leave the house, go to the office and I'm with the team I, so I'm in it more. She gets to work from home and so in our particular situation, her Responsibilities in her jobs is primarily at the house, and so she's gonna make sure that she does that job with excellence, in the same way that I'm doing my job. We're trying to do everything we can with excellence. I'm not gonna come home and be like what's this mess about? Where's my dinner?
Speaker 1:and Just like I'm not gonna sit here and hound him if he's not making a certain amount of money. I understand he's working, he's. We all have stress, we all have things we're dealing with, and so that's where the mutual respect needs to come in for each other and and Kind of meet each other in the middle.
Speaker 2:So then, this is so the second scenario. So so, not people with our situation, to where you get to stay home for the most part, but you, what if the wife and the husband are both working now? Now that situation is different.
Speaker 2:Yeah right, and so it doesn't mean that the husband is not leading. It just means that they're equally working. We know a lot of people that are like this, and some people are like, well, the husband makes more money, or what if the wife makes more money? It doesn't determine, it doesn't matter. What matters is you guys have to figure out what your situation is and divvy out the responsibilities that need to be done, and so what are the responsibilities? In the house, the stuff needs to be cleaned, kids need to be taken care of, things need to be put into order, and so if you're both equally working, it doesn't matter. The the money situation, what? Yeah, who's making more or less matters. You guys are both out now. You're both coming back and figuring out the shared load of responsibility exactly.
Speaker 1:Yeah, but if one spouse in our situation when is working full-time, yeah, I mean You're. If you're a stay-at-home mom, then yeah, that's your job to to take care of the home and take care of the children. It's an. I don't see it as being like an old thing. It's like when you have children, you're deciding to take care of your children.
Speaker 2:And we've known people to where those roles have actually switched, but still the man is leading. So if the role switched to where it's like, hey, there's a season that we're going into where the the woman has a higher earning potential Than the man and the man's been really struggling or for whatever reason, and they have come to the decision together To to where the the wife is gonna work and the husband's gonna stay home, well, guess who's gonna be primarily doing all of those household duties? It's gonna be, the man.
Speaker 1:Yeah, but I think with that, again, that doesn't mean that he's not the leader of the home. That just means that like, instead of like he, there still should be like vision of where they're going and what they're doing and and, and if the man is home with the children or the woman's home with the children, your job is to train your children up in the ways of the Lord and equip them to go into the world, and so that's Like a lot of responsibility, yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and and the the key takeaway in that situation Is that that's a decision made together and the final decision has to be the guy making that call. And a lot of people don't like that, but the the truth is the man was designed to lead the home. That means that the final authority for the final accountability and responsibility Lies on you, even if you abdicate that responsibility onto your wife, even if you say, well, I don't believe any of that and I'm gonna let my wife lead the house and she's gonna make all the shots. Well, guess what? It doesn't matter if you'd say that you are still gonna be called out, just like Adam was called out for letting his wife take the lead in that situation. Yeah, and so when, when Adam was alone, the Lord said it's not good for man to be alone. So he made a helper suitable for him, and I think we talked about this in one of the previous episodes. That helper doesn't mean that eve is his assistant To to help him just carry out his duties. The idea behind that word is is not just an assistant, it's a, an advocate, it's an ally, it's someone who is some, I like.
Speaker 2:One translation says a redeeming ally for him, in the sense that God has given Adam a task be fruitful, multiply, fill the earth and subdue it. Take dominion over the like. You're supposed to rule this planet and you cannot do that by yourself. You need an ally, you need a partner to help you. It's not good for you to do this. You cannot do this on your own, so we need one another.
Speaker 2:And so, if God has given me Wisdom and help in my wife, I am a fool if I do not listen to the wisdom and the counsel and the guidance of my wife. So, of course, the final decision in our household I have to make it, but I'm not making these decisions in a bubble and a lot of people are like well, I'm the leader. That means I have to plan and ideate and I have to strategize and I just make the issue. That make the the call and you just blindly follow me. And that's not it at all in our household. There's no question I don't have to lord authority over Candice. She has been an incredible encourager and I feel the weight of Responsibility by her following me because she's like. I trust God is leading us through you, and that's terrifying to me. Yeah, but.
Speaker 1:But there's also the aspect of like you, you supporting me and what I have been felt, what I felt called to you know. So I've supported you in the business, but then I also took time to Get certified to be a personal trainer and that was very it was a lot. It was a lot of work and so a lot of studying, and so you kind of had to pick up the slack a little bit in those times, or you know me being very much involved in the church.
Speaker 2:And, and so there's the sat, this aspect of like individual giftings and callings.
Speaker 2:Yeah and then the united corporate call and vision for the family. Like I have Together with Candice, I didn't set this vision by myself like this is something that we have prayed about, we've talked about, we've sought counsel through and, at the end of the day, this is the vision that we have for our families evangelism, discipleship, church planting, world mission. Our thing is we imagine every Christian living on mission. We're going to lead a church in a movement of people who are on mission for christ, who are biblically literate, gospel fluent, mission minded christ center. We came up with that vision and and she's like I believe god is leading us through you and I support that vision, but I didn't make that on my own. So that's the the vision for the family. But then how that plays itself out individually Candice is a worship leader, candice has her certified personal training license. Candice is also the cfo of our company and so she has her individual giftings and callings. I have my own individual giftings and callings, but they're working together towards the shared vision that we have as a family.
Speaker 2:Um, I was out to lunch actually last week and, um, when I was telling someone about planting the church, they, you know all the a lot of people ask you know, is your wife on board? He's your wife on board. And that's actually a great question because I didn't think about this. But a lot of church planters are people just step out to do stuff and their wife isn't on board. And what I said was you know, my wife was on board. Uh, with the moment that I told her that I felt called, which was five years before, four and a half years before we even planted. And you told me he said Sean, I trust you, I believe that god is leading us through you, I support you. Yeah, and I told him that he said that and he's like you have a good woman and I'm a man. I trust that I do, but I don't think a lot of guys have that.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that support and so why? Why do you think that is because you know I.
Speaker 2:I think there's a couple reasons. One is we talked about track record right. So there's this trust issue. Um, I think another one is they people just don't have these conversations together and they don't even know, like, where each other stands on, what our roles are or how we're supposed to work together or what the vision is for the family. So it might be a track record, maybe they've never like cast a vision together and like thought like hey.
Speaker 1:Like why don't you write down Okay? Let's have people do this exercise. The husband write down his vision and and his goals and like just things he wants to do in life and things he sees himself doing individually and Um with the family you know when and then the wife do the same, and then come together and discuss those things.
Speaker 2:That was one of the the greatest exercises I can't. And I went through a mentor of ours at the time. He said put together a vision board. And we're like what's a vision board? And he said, just, you guys do it separate and then come together and discuss it. And we did, and so so we did it separate. So he said, sean, you do one in canis, you do one.
Speaker 2:Um, put a list of 10 things if money and time weren't an issue, 10 things you would love to do for yourself, in your family, and then 10 things that you would like to do for other people. And so this is your vision. Like you, if time and money wasn't an issue and you could have your dream, what are 10 things you would love to Accomplish or do for yourself and your family, 10 things that you'd love to help do for other people. And so I did mine and Candice did hers. And then we came together and there was a lot of common ground, um, in in some things that she thought I was like, oh my gosh, I didn't even think about that, right. And so we have like this shared vision together and we're like this is in. We put it down on paper.
Speaker 1:And it's changed over time you know, our, you know. But we've been changing together because we put down, we're like, okay, we have this vision board and he's got. We kind of compromised and added things and kind of blended them. And then it was like, okay, this is what we're going for and as we're pursuing those things together, things change like, but we're still on the same page.
Speaker 2:Yeah. So so we're asking you know, why don't people do that? Why do why? Why don't people Wives, follow their husband, support their husbands in the vision one? I think it's a trust issue. Maybe husband is not trustworthy, maybe the wife just has trust issues with the husband, um, so there might be a trust issue. One might just be a lack of vision. There is no vision in the home, so we we're not going to support just random ideas, right, and so maybe coming together and coming up with a vision. And then I think the other one is just like bad theology. People don't talk about this stuff and so people are just kind of running on their own track and just doing their thing and just have no purpose, right? This podcast is called the Mission of Marriage podcast, and so the idea is that marriage is like a mission, but we should be living our marriage together on mission, for the mission of Christ, and so that is a never ending pursuit. So, like, how are we going to partner together and do this?
Speaker 1:Yeah, and I think there was a time period where I was kind of seeking other things too and it wasn't like you didn't come and be like we're not doing this and that's not, you know. It was more of like you had grace for me in those times or I had grace for you when you had different things going visions or thoughts or whatever. And so it's not squashing each other, you know. It's really having grace in those times where we need to and loving each other where we are. Yeah. So, and I know that you, I know this is a debatable scripture and you know, but I don't, you know, whatever people want to interpret, however they want to interpret, but it says what it says. So the scripture that says that, the same, you know, when it says that the curse of women, or the fall, is that women will want for their husbands.
Speaker 1:Yeah, is the same translation as Cain and Abel. You know he will want, for he wanted for his brother and that meant to overcome him, to subdue him, to overpower him, and so it's just like child childbirth. We talk about that all the time. Well, pain and childbirth was was one, but we don't talk about the other one, which is the woman will want for her husband and that means to overpower him. So I think that that is still just his child. Painful childbirth is still a thing. It's that is still a thing where women want to overpower their husbands and they have control issues.
Speaker 2:So the passage she's talking about in Genesis three, where they the curse of the fall right, that the ground is cursed, the snake is cursed. You know, man is going to work with toil and sweat from his brow.
Speaker 1:I don't see snakes having feet still, yeah, and so he says in Genesis three, 16,.
Speaker 2:He says to the woman I will intensify your labor pains. You'll bear children with painful effort. Your desire will be for your husband, yet he will rule over you. And that Hebrew phrase for your desire will be for your husband is the same Hebrew phrase in the next chapter where Cain and Abel, where God says sin is crouching at your door, cain and its desire will be for you. His desire is to have you, so sins desires to overtake, to overpower, to rule over Cain. It's the same exact Hebrew word for your desire Woman will be for your husband, so that so women will have this innate desire to rule over husbands, yet he will rule over you. And so now there's this, this relational division between men and women, to where who's fighting for power, and that's where that's pendulum swing from chauvinism to feminism happens.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:And usually chauvinism wins, just because, by sheer nature of being a stronger, the, you know, the woman being the weaker vessel, the woman being, you know, physically like God made us different, and those differences were supposed to be beautiful. Men have thicker, denser bone structure, bone density higher, bigger muscular frames, not because God couldn't have made us the, you know, the same. He, of course. He could have Women have them childbearing hips, and so higher fat body percentage for producing milk and to be nurturing. And these are the things that are supposed to be beautiful differences. Yet, because of the curse, they're at odds with one another. And so, yes, men and women are different. Those differences are supposed to complement one another for the glory of God.
Speaker 2:Yet we've used those differences to fight with one another, and I think the biblical call, the call that we're trying to do for ourselves and it's just worked out in our marriage, is to look more like what the Bible says, and that is husbands, love your wives as Christ loves the church. Wives submit to your husbands as unto the Lord. So that means that your submission to your husband is in light of your first and most primary submission, which is to the Lord. So you're not going to submit to your husband if his submission to him looks like not submitting to the Lord, right? If he's trying to make you to submit to do something ungodly, of course you don't do that, just submitting to your husband as unto the Lord. And so we've just found that when men and women live in their roles, it just works. It works, and when it doesn't work it's because we're not following the biblical pattern.
Speaker 1:Yes, so there's. There's the gray areas that we're talking about, where you figure out what that looks like in your home, but the standard is that husbands lead your wives, your family as.
Speaker 1:Christ leads the church, you know. And again, why submit? But you know. So I want to go back really quick to because we talked to a lot of couples where this is an issue in the home, where, like you said, where the house, whoever staying at the house and typically it's the woman is not, you know, the house is just a disaster and things are just out of order and structure. And so I kind of wanted to kind of go into that a little bit, because it's very important for for women to get on a schedule. You know you have a lot of things that you're overseeing, that you're dealing with, that you're taking care of, and if you don't have a good routine and a schedule, then everything's going to be chaotic. And I agree that we do just as whoever is at the home needs to be taking care of the home, and I don't know if you want to, I just know that that's sort of the best issue.
Speaker 2:It's like you got to tackle that one because I don't want to get canceled, or no, I mean for me, I just look at it as, whatever you do, Deal with excellence, and it's not an unmanly thing to be cleaning for the man. One of the most godly things you could do is imaging God by ordering and making order out of chaos. So if you see a messy house, if you see something like cleaning that up is imaging God. And so if it's the husband's primarily, if you've got a lot of time and you're staying at home and you've got a business that you could work from home a lot or something, maybe your wife's doing her career and she's out of the house well, someone's got to clean, and so if that responsibility falls on you, then do it with excellence.
Speaker 1:You shouldn't be living like a slum and we talked about. The standard of cleanliness is also different. Totally Candice is Danny Tanner from Full House which is an old show from the 90s, and he was a clean freak, or more, and I used to stress myself out when the kids were really little, because it was like I couldn't rest, because I couldn't rest if something was out of order, and so I had to learn to not be like that and kind of let things go.
Speaker 2:You've been a lot more gracious and we've gone through, so for me, I am oblivious. I was just not a clean person and so like throwing clothes on the floor of course they're dirty and eventually I'll put them in the hamper when it's time to do laundry and you are like I cannot handle clothes on the floor and so I'm learning like OK, no, no, ok, I can't leave my clothes on the floor. I got to try to put it in the basket. So I'm trying to be cognizant of it and you've been very gracious of not snapping at me if I missed the mark in that, but we've had to have those conversations for sure, but it's the way that it's approached too.
Speaker 1:I've learned too Like I'm Sean Walks and I'm not going to be like, oh my gosh, you did this right. I'm not going to attack him, it's just like when things are, I notice, like you got to pay attention to the atmosphere, to what's going on, and if it's the right timing, then we will.
Speaker 2:The other day was a perfect example. We had a big party for Chase and after our middle son turned 13,. So we had all our friends and family come over and we did this big ceremony and just kind of honoring him for stepping into manhood and just letting him know that that weight of accountability and responsibility is increasing as he's becoming a teenager, as he's growing into a man. Anyway, the next day the house was thrashed. It's completely messy, there's trash everywhere, there's clothes everywhere, and that next day I have to spend several hours in sermon prep because I have all of my thoughts and my notes. But this is my day to do my sermon prep and I'm not going to have any other time to do it. And so I feel guilty because I'm like the house is messy and Candice is cleaning it, and so you said something You're like. I was like hey, I'm sorry for not. You're like well, I thought everybody was going to help me and I was like I can't feel guilty for needing to do this.
Speaker 1:And I went in the back. Well, that's what you said. You said I can't feel guilty for needing to do this and I said OK.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and I have to say that kind of with caution, because I think some guys are going to say that our relationship dynamic is such to where I felt like I could say that in the time, because I don't talk like that to her.
Speaker 1:Well, communication is so huge in our marriage, we talk about everything and but we also have learned, like I said, to know when those timings are. We have like which we'll get into another episode with parenting couch time which the kids are older. We don't have couch time anymore, we're just like we have backyard time. We're hanging out like just mom and dad right now and so we have a lot of time to communicate to each other and stuff.
Speaker 2:So kind of wrapping up. Do you have any other thoughts on this? I just wanted to a couple takeaways. We didn't get into a lot of specifics of how this is going to play out, because the Bible has some things that are black and white and there's a ton of gray area because it's going to look different for a million different situations. So your household situation is not going to look like our household situation.
Speaker 2:You have to figure out and use wisdom and communicate and talk about what that's going to look like for your situation. The bare minimum we should know is that we together are supposed to be partnered to make Christ known, to have a vision for the family, to pursue the vision. It is my responsibility and accountability to set the vision, to set the direction for the family. I don't have to do that in a bubble. I do that in communication, with my God-given help that he's given me. I'm a fool if I don't listen to it.
Speaker 2:But at the end of the day I have to make the call and she is responsible for following, and if I screw it up, if I mess it up, it's on me, and so we have to figure out what that looks like in the everyday stuff, the chores, all this stuff. You guys figured that stuff out as you continue and your seasons are going to change as you go from one season to the next in your marriage and that's why your closeness, your relationship, your communication has to be on point. So that's it. And we don't have a closing set. So here go, team.