In this episode, we delve into the complexities of divorce, exploring the why, how, and what to do through a biblical perspective. Join us as we discuss the underlying reasons for marital challenges, offering insights on how to strengthen your union and potentially avoid the painful path of divorce. Drawing on biblical principles, we provide guidance for those who have experienced the heart-wrenching journey of separation, offering hope, healing, and a spiritual perspective on rebuilding after the storm. Tune in for a compassionate and enlightening conversation on navigating the challenges of divorce in alignment with timeless biblical wisdom.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
We're Sean and Candace Tambagahan and this is the Mission of Marriage Podcast! Have you ever been at a crossroads in your marriage, wondering if there's any hope for restoration? We've walked through some rocky patches ourselves. Our marital journey has taught us about perseverance, grace, and the infinite love of God. And it's these lessons we strive to share with you, to help navigate the trials and tribulations of marriage. We don't claim to have all the answers, but we do have some tools and insights that might just help you on your journey.
In this episode, we delve into the complexities of divorce, exploring the why, how, and what to do through a biblical perspective. Join us as we discuss the underlying reasons for marital challenges, offering insights on how to strengthen your union and potentially avoid the painful path of divorce. Drawing on biblical principles, we provide guidance for those who have experienced the heart-wrenching journey of separation, offering hope, healing, and a spiritual perspective on rebuilding after the storm. Tune in for a compassionate and enlightening conversation on navigating the challenges of divorce in alignment with timeless biblical wisdom.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
We're Sean and Candace Tambagahan and this is the Mission of Marriage Podcast! Have you ever been at a crossroads in your marriage, wondering if there's any hope for restoration? We've walked through some rocky patches ourselves. Our marital journey has taught us about perseverance, grace, and the infinite love of God. And it's these lessons we strive to share with you, to help navigate the trials and tribulations of marriage. We don't claim to have all the answers, but we do have some tools and insights that might just help you on your journey.
My name is Sean, I'm Candice and this is the mission of marriage podcast.
Speaker 2:We talk about a Christian perspective on having a better marriage. So, babe, before we like hop into this super encouraging topic, we're talking about divorce and but before we go into that, I, how are you doing?
Speaker 1:Good, you know, I was thinking on the way over here. I was like every time he asks me, how are you doing? And I was like and most of the time I'm like I'm good or I'm busy, or I'm tired or whatever, but everybody's busy.
Speaker 2:We've been saying that a lot, like you know everybody, I've been trying to rework my, my language on this because how, how you doing? I'm so busy, I'm busy, everybody's busy, we're busy, and so I've been trying to really assess. You know where am I right now? And so it's like you know, life is full, god is good, but really like, okay, I'm putting you on the spot here, like in our marriage, where would you say we are today, in this season that we're currently in today? What is it? What is the date? The day is the.
Speaker 1:October 24th. I would say it's really good. Only because of last night we I had been feeling distant from Sean.
Speaker 2:You've got to fill in the gaps for a little bit.
Speaker 1:No, I'm going to anyways, I was feeling distant just because we're so busy and I have I'm feel like I'm at a circus juggling plates, and so I told him like, hey, I'm feeling distant, I'm feeling like I need. He's like what do you want to do? You want to go out to dinner? You want to? And I'm like we always do all that stuff. And we did go out to dinner, but I was like I just want to lay on the couch and watch a movie, you know. And so that's what we did, and it was just nice. And it was a long movie, but it was nice just to be able to relax in the house and watch a movie.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I feel I felt the same thing because you said, hey, we need to hang out, and like we just felt this kind of distance the last few weeks just because we've been so packed Our schedules, nonstop running a business, and then, even though we run the business together, I'm in the office, she's running it from home. My schedule has been back to back and then leading the church. We're ministering, but we're ministering in different capacities. You're dealing with the worship team and a lot of the children's and I'm dealing with other things and like sermon prep and pasturing and I have my guys that I'm discipling.
Speaker 2:You have your women that you have your women's group with, and then we have the kids with sports, and so it's just been extremely packed to where we've been nonstop. So even when we see each other, it's not like quality time. And so, yeah, it's just the busy season that we've been in, and it's a season It'll pass. Kids sports are almost done.
Speaker 1:Thank the Lord.
Speaker 2:But I mean, I think it's just important to know that, like you have seasons, you go through those times to where maybe you'll feel close or you'll feel distant or whatever. But we acknowledged that. You said, hey, we need to really hang out and I might. My go to is like oh, I'm gonna hang out with people. Listen, I invited people over, like we always have people from the church over, or.
Speaker 1:So I had said we need to hang out Sunday, and then after church he invited everybody over thinking, oh, we need to hang out with people yeah totally. And I'm like he's like, we hung out last night. I'm like, no, we did not hang out last night, we hung out with people.
Speaker 2:So so that Open and honest communication, just where we are. You need to hang out, we need to hang out, we need to have that connection and it I feel like, even though we did feel distant, even just one night, not to say that that's going to work for everybody. One night of connections going to make them like fix all their problems, or whatever make them feel connected but it does work, and just have that communication.
Speaker 2:So tonight that has nothing to do with our topic. We're talking about divorce. This has actually been a topic that has been requested by some people. We know personally people who are going through it right now that are dearly loved and close to us. We know people who have experienced divorce and it's been tragic. We know people who've recovered from that. We know people who were on the brink of divorce and it was irreconcilable. In most cases they would be known as like there's no working this out, and we've seen, by God's grace, him bring reconciliation and restoration. We've seen people who split up and then got back together. We've seen the whole thing.
Speaker 2:Divorce is extremely important and I believe the church doesn't talk enough about it. The only time we hear the church talk about it is rightly so, is to not rightly so, but is to condemn it. And by rightly so I'm not talking about condemning people who have been divorced, talking about talking, divorce being the subject that, like Jesus himself, talks about Right. And so I mean do you have in your or do you want me to read this? Like there's a couple passages. Baby, you sent me that, jesus directly himself.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you can read them because they're in front of you.
Speaker 2:So Matthew 531. Jesus says, it has been said, anyone who divorces his wife must give her a certificate of divorce. Right? So this is when Jesus is in the beatitudes, he's in the sermon, on the mount, he's comparing the law. He said you know that it is written, that it has been said that the law and traditions. And then he says but I say unto you, and he's not changing the law, he takes the law to a higher level and to its ultimate purpose. And in Matthew 5 he says it's been said, anyone who divorces his wife must give her a certificate of divorce, which, by the way, means that it's assumed that there was a certificate of marriage. Right?
Speaker 1:So well that's another story.
Speaker 2:Verse 32, but I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for sexual immorality, makes her a victim of adultery, and anyone who marries a divorced woman commits adultery. So this is a common passage and there's more here. This is a common passage that the church uses to condemn all forms of divorce, except for in the case of adultery. That's it. We'll talk a little bit about some of the nuance and some of where the Bible might be silent, but the heart here is that he says it's been said that if you divorce your wife, just give her a certificate of divorce. And what he's dealing with here is Pharisees, who were like you got to keep in mind the first century. Women are very, extremely vulnerable in society. They don't have rights in this area. They are under Roman law. And women, if you were divorced, you were very vulnerable in society. You were extremely like you were shunned you were shunned.
Speaker 2:It was just not good. And so they were flipping like, oh, you want to divorce or just write her a certificate? And he's not saying, OK, well, just like you know, don't divorce her. The point here was, I tell you, if you divorce your wife except for the case of adultery, like I don't want that at all, Like this is not in my heart at all you should not just divorce. And he's talking about these people who are just flippantly divorcing and just leaving these women that are extremely vulnerable in society. Matthew 19, 4 through 12. Haven't you read?
Speaker 2:Jesus replied at the beginning, the Creator made them male and female. He said for this reason, a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and then two will become one flesh. So they're no longer two but one flesh. Therefore, what God has joined together, let no one separate. Why then, they asked, did Moses command that a man give his wife a certificate of divorce and send her away? So this is like the same passage, right that they're. Oh, you said it's in the law that Moses permitted these certificates of divorce, Jesus, he starts out by saying yeah, God, in the beginning the divorce was not even in his mind. That is not the design. God brought them together to be one and let what God brought together, let nobody separate, and they're like. Well, what about this? Moses allowed for this and he says Moses permitted you to divorce, so he allowed it, but your heart were hard because your hearts were hard. So again, this isn't his design, but because of the hardness of our hearts and because of sin. There was a permit, but it was not this way from the beginning.
Speaker 2:I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for sexual immorality, and marries another woman commits adultery. And so someone might say so, Sean, are you saying that if I divorce my wife and marry another woman, that I'm an adulterer? I would say I'm not saying that. Jesus says that, and that's how serious it is right. So the disciples said to him if this is the situation between a husband and wife, it's better than not to marry.
Speaker 2:And Jesus said not everyone can accept this word, but only those who has been given, For there are eunuchs who were born that way, and there are eunuchs who've been made eunuchs by others, and there are those who choose to live like eunuchs for the sake of the kingdom.
Speaker 2:The one who can't accept this should accept it. And so on the one hand he's like, hey, if you can accept this message and remain unmarried and be a eunuch for a set apart to God to just do the work of the ministry, then totally do that. But we see in other passages throughout the scriptures that finding a wife, finding a husband, that this is a good thing. When a man finds the wife of his youth, he finds a good thing. It is good to find the wife of your youth, it is good to be married. But that means that what God is throwing together, like you, should not just have this easy separate, this easy way of separating from each other. So I think we have to start out that way and this is like that's kind of it's understanding the severity of divorce.
Speaker 1:So it's not just taken so lightly.
Speaker 2:So I think we have to start there, just because, like I said, it's serious. This is not to be taken lightly, but that's usually where the conversation in the church stops. Don't get divorced.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Period, unless it's adultery, All right we'll and if you have, then we're gonna condemn you and zero grace, and-.
Speaker 2:And you're a second rate Christian and you're less than and that is not the case at all.
Speaker 2:There is no condemnation for those who are in Christ.
Speaker 2:This is not a situation that you can't recover from in the sense that you can't be used by God because of this, but it is a serious thing, and so we started asking the question.
Speaker 2:My whole intent in this is to kind of talk to people in three areas like how do you divorce? Proof your marriage before you get married, during, and then what happens if you have been divorced, and so those are kind of like three people that I want us to talk to, and so let's start with that first, because I know you have some notes here. But before we go into why people divorce and all this, let's talk to the first group of people who are not even married yet. Maybe they're courting, or maybe they're dating or they're engaged and they're going into marriage, or maybe they're brand new in this. But like, how do you divorce? Proof your marriage, going into it, what are some of those things I've talked about it before. They have to where you should evaluate Before you get involved. What are some of those things that you would encourage young women to look for in a man to evaluate before they say yes.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I mean I think first the main one is are they a Christian? So we'll get into that scripture about talking about not being unequally yoked and marrying a non-Christian. So that's first and foremost. And then going over your values, like what's important to you, some things. I mean there's always gonna be stuff that people have quirks that you can get over that stuff. But you wanna talk about the essentials. Do you want kids? Where do you go to?
Speaker 2:church. It's hard to find out if someone doesn't want kids and wanting kids is like a really big deal for you and that person doesn't want kids, and if you find that out after-.
Speaker 1:Oh well, I'll just get married and he'll change his mind. Don't do that.
Speaker 2:You can't bank on that. So do you want kids? What are your values, your morals, your faith, what?
Speaker 1:else. Yeah, what's your vision in life? Where are you going in life? Are you a lazy person? Do you work hard? Do you have goals? Do you have so? Just making sure? That you're kind of on the same page as far as where you're going in life.
Speaker 2:So look, girls, just because he's got that charisma, he's got that Riz, he's handsome, he's charismatic, he's got that swag, he's got the way about him, he's funny, he's outgoing, he's gregarious, he's articulate. If he's lazy, if he has no work ethic, if he doesn't have good interpersonal relationships with his own family, if he has no vision for his life, if he has no direction for where he's going and what he wants to get, if he has no moral compass, that's grounding him. Those are so much more important Cause guess what it is leaves after a while, unless you're lucky, like Candice, to be married to me and I still got it at 38 years old and counting it leaves, it's superficial and so the most important thing or even if it stays, it gets really old you could be married to a really handsome, charismatic loser who you're just kind of tired of being around.
Speaker 1:Well, and that's the other thing is seeing like are you an introvert and they're an extrovert? You could still work with that kind of stuff but, to what degree? Right, so we balance so those are so much less important than Well maybe it is really important to some people because, for example, we know of a couple that divorced because the guy was such an introvert he wouldn't go anywhere with her and she always went to every single event, every single thing by herself, and so that took a toll on her.
Speaker 2:I think that's more than being introverted, because I know introverts, I know couples that have that dynamic, but the husband still they work it out. That was a completely different. If you're an introvert and you just refuse to go with your spouse anywhere, there's just some issues you gotta work through, like that's not cool. So those are some of the questions that a young lady might be asking herself about the guy that she might be pursuing. If you're a guy, it's the same thing. What is her moral compass? Where is she going? What are her values? What does she want kids, what is she looking for? What is she looking for in her husband? What is her relationship dynamic with her family? Again, it doesn't have to be the perfect person. I'm just saying if you at least know those things going into it, you're more set up to be like okay, this is the type of person that I can see myself spending the rest of my life with. And so again, I think we've talked about it before in a different episode that it is said that 50% of all marriages and divorced. That's kind of a made up statistic. They don't actually know. The best data they have on this is Census Bureau data, which is 30%, which is still a lot, but it doesn't have to.
Speaker 2:There's so many different factors that go into divorce. Just because 40% of Americans are fat and overweight Doesn't mean that it has to be you, because there are contributing factors, behavioral things that you can do that contribute to being fat and overweight. There are behavioral things that you do that can contribute to being divorced, and so it doesn't have to be your story. You can have a fantastic marriage. So, if you're going into the marriage, evaluate before you get involved, what are their core values? Where are they at? Spiritually, politically even and it doesn't mean that politics are super important. I'm just saying that that can affect the way you're, the direction of your life. So, asking those questions before getting into the marriage. Okay, so now people are married. Well, god is joined together, let no man separate. So now, how do we divorce, proof our life, our marriage, now that we are married? What are some of those things that come to mind?
Speaker 1:Well, I think we've kind of already touched on so many of them in our past episodes fighting fair communication, connection, connecting relationally, spiritually, sexually, all those things.
Speaker 2:So, and we I think we're talking about to like some of the main reasons people fight are money, sex and children right, and not in a particular order, but like, about the money, all right. So money, financial strains are real. Couples go through financial strains. They fight about money. What are some of those things? I don't know. If you can read, these are your notes, yeah, my notes. I just copied them here. So you put man needs to provide no bullying. What do you mean by that?
Speaker 1:So I've seen it to where, even if the woman works to I'm not talking about women shouldn't work, and I'm just saying overall a man needs to provide for his family. And I've seen it to where men are like, no, this is my money and you're almost like calling the women luchers Hold it over their head. I'm the one that makes the money, I'm the provider. So, no, you can't go do that. No, you can't spend that money and you have to ask me permission.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so yeah, treating them less than treating them. So yeah, so the man needs to provide. So what do you? That's your expectations Like? What are you holding that over my head?
Speaker 1:Is that you're the one that we've never experienced that when we, when we got married, we immediately, you know, put our finances together, and I mean shortly after, I mean I and I ended up being a stay at home mom.
Speaker 2:but never once did you put our finances together and I didn't complain because you were my sugar mama and you made all the money. And and then, once you quit your job and said, step up, you need to bring some money to the table, I had to step up and but the expectation on both of us was that the man is is the sole bread earner, is the primary.
Speaker 1:Especially if women want to stay home, be stay at home moms.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Then you should step up and you should not hold that over her head.
Speaker 2:Totally the life that we have is not because I'm such a baller and can make all kinds of money. I make a lot of money and I'm good, we're eating lobster. We're good, we're comfortable.
Speaker 1:We're not eating lobster, not tonight.
Speaker 2:But we were well.
Speaker 1:We have.
Speaker 2:We're not like billionaires or not millionaires or anything like that, but we're well off. It's not because I'm this genius entrepreneur. The only reason that we are in the position that we're in is because we have a really great partnership in our marriage. Because Candice has been a stay at home mom. It has freed me up the capacity to be able to give more in the workplace. It's been able to help me. She's been an encourager in me every time that I felt down and I didn't believe in myself. I would not be where I am today had it not been for Candice making the sacrifices that she made, and so I should never. I could never even think about holding me, making money over her head, as if this is my money and you are the one who's like. Where do you bring to the table? We have built this life together. It doesn't matter who's actually going into the office or whatever. Like we are creating this together. So I think that's what you mean.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:All right, so man needs to provide no bullying. You said two are one in all things, file taxes. What the heck do you mean by that File taxes?
Speaker 1:So I've seen it to where one spouse takes on the responsibility of everything and like even to the point of the filing of the taxes and it's like they file separately.
Speaker 2:I was going to say I thought you were talking about us because I'm like you literally handle everything.
Speaker 1:No, but you're with no, but we're, we're on that together. I pretend like I know what's going on during tax season or CPAs.
Speaker 2:There I'm like, yeah, sure, I think I know what's going on. No, but you're saying not filing separately, like people having their own accounts and stuff like that, yeah, filing together and taking on that.
Speaker 1:So OK. For example, there has been a couple where they filed separately and the man's like well, I claimed all of everybody is dependent, so I don't got to pay no taxes. But the woman had to pay taxes on hers and he's like that's on, you Pay it. No, you guys are one, you should be filing together and you should be equally taking on it. You know what I mean? That together shouldn't fall on one person. If anything, it should fall on the man.
Speaker 2:In my opinion, but so people are fighting about money. You're saying that the two should be one in all things, even that.
Speaker 1:Yes.
Speaker 2:And then you said you put here equals provider, not more. It doesn't have more, say the provider. I think we already kind of talked about that in the no bullying kind of thing. And then read my notes directly from the page.
Speaker 1:Sorry, like me jotting things down.
Speaker 2:Can you read this? Ok, so this one. He said on the same page be wise with money.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and that's also to make sure. If you do have combined finances, you do have to be accountable to each other. So if you have one spouse that typically likes to spend a lot of money, and then you have, oh really Are we?
Speaker 2:going to go there. Ok, half of my clothes. Oh, look at this, hold on, this is a free t-shirt from the church Planting. This is where bullying Hold on.
Speaker 1:This is where bullying comes in. I have not gone clothes shopping in probably five years. And I have been wearing permission and I have been wearing the same clothes and they have holes in them and they're faded and stretch out. So I told Sean.
Speaker 2:No, no, no, no. You asked me permission and I said hold on, what's your allowance?
Speaker 1:Anyways, I told Sean I'm going shopping, I need new clothes. I have never told her.
Speaker 2:I'm like, ok, sure I don't know what we have when we're talking about money, I swipe the card and hope for the best. I just hope we're doing well.
Speaker 1:Candice knows our financial situation, so I give them a heads up if it's if we need to put a cap on something Free t-shirt free hat. Anyways, no bullying guys.
Speaker 2:So being on the same page, being wise with money.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so being held accountable. So there are times where if Sean does want to spend a little bit more than than he should, I will just respectfully tell him, hey just so you know, freaking, we're getting low budget, Like you know, please don't. And then he'll be. And then we kind of figured out sometimes a good system If we're really low, just Venmo me what I can spend literally Venmo's me.
Speaker 2:So I know what guys is that bad. I'm like a child when it comes to these things, and so you guys have to all figure out how this works in your marriage. Candice is our CFO in the company. She's also the CFO in our household. She's very shrewd with finances compared to me, and so I definitely have trusted her and we've kind of delegated the bills. And I've heard people say like, oh, the man should always pay the bills in the house, and I just don't agree with that and I don't see.
Speaker 1:Well, you pay for them, I just whatever. Yeah, we figure out.
Speaker 2:We delegate the responsibilities and roles within our marriage to who's going to be doing what based off the skill set, gifting ability, all that kind of stuff. And then you said financial advisor here what?
Speaker 1:is yeah. If you are struggling with finances in your marriage and you guys are not on the same page, then I would say go see a financial advisor, Get, get a third person to come in and help you get those things in.
Speaker 2:And we've had this and one of the things that we've had in mentorship. Actually, we were actually in a mentorship relationship with someone we really trusted and he said let me go through a cash flow analysis with you and he gives a cash flow analysis worksheet and the worksheet you could fill it in yourself like what you think you've, it's basically what do you spend your money on. And we put in the numbers we thought and we gave it to him and he said no, no, no. I mean like go to your bank statements and let and open up your bank statements and put your actual numbers there for the last three months and we it was like standing naked in front of somebody showing like this is where we spent our money, and we were so far off on our estimations of what we thought we spent on going out and all these different things, right, and so anyway, we needed a third party that kind of help us guide us into creating and we have a financial advisor that helps us with the bigger things.
Speaker 1:Right Investments and insurance Now we know like our budget, for you know eating out or whatever.
Speaker 2:So again, we're talking about divorce or divorce proofing wise, because we're talking about some of the main things that people fight over. Finances is a big part of that. I think let's move on from the money part Selfish.
Speaker 1:So so people fight or end up divorcing because they're not kind of. My brain is being selfish. You put selfish and then refer to previous episodes.
Speaker 2:to serving each other, sacrifice yes serving each other.
Speaker 1:They're not serving each other, they're not filling her, they're not getting their needs met, emotionally or physically, or whatever the case is.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I actually did a search, an intensive research, by going to Google. I was typing top reasons people divorce infidelity. Look, obviously that is the one explicit in the passage and it does not say if they commit adultery, then you for sure should divorce. It says we allow for a divorce in the case of infidelity. Now obviously a person a husband, a wife is freed from that covenant because that covenant has been broken. In the case of infidelity, if a spouse is cheated, the covenant has been broken and so he allows for a divorce. It does not say you should divorce and we've seen people been able to work through their marriage in the cases of infidelity and I think that's God's heart and desires that you wouldn't cheat, that you would remain faithful to your covenant and not have infidelity. But if you have the grace and the ability to be able to work through that, I think that's a good thing. Nobody should look down on that. That should be encouraged in the church. But it also should not be looked down on if someone does choose to go the other route. So that is the number one reason, or one of the number one reasons. Another one is intimacy in the relationship, irreconcilable differences, so irreconcilable differences. This is a thing in what we call no fault divorces. So California is a no fault state. You don't have to have any reason. That means there's no fault of anybody else. We just have irreconcilable differences.
Speaker 2:I think this is most people, the vast majority of people, are fighting. They don't love each other. We've fallen out of love. In fact, when I looked at not only the top reasons people get divorced, I looked at the top reasons for why people get married. And it's because I'm in love, ok. Well, what does that mean? I want financial security or companionship. Well, if I don't feel like I have a good companion and if I feel like I've fallen out of love and the reason for me getting married is not because I see someone that I'm committing to love and making a covenant relationship with before God and before man, to this person to love for better or for worse, then of course we can divorce for irreconcilable differences, whatever that means.
Speaker 2:So I think people are going into the marriage with the wrong mindset and they think that they can go out of the marriage just as easily based off of not having those feelings that they went into it for. So, irreconcilable differences communication this is a big one that we've been talking about. They just feel like they're not being heard, they're not able to communicate. Abuse this is the reality of some people. So, ok, well, here we go. We talk about this. So infidelity that's stated as a reason why people are permitted to get divorced. What about I'm a woman in an abusive, physically abusive, unsafe relationship?
Speaker 1:I would say, yeah, I would say that that's just wisdom. If you are being physically abused, you should remove yourself from that situation 100%.
Speaker 2:If someone were in our church that was experiencing physical abuse. I would tell the woman to get into a safe place. Get out of that house.
Speaker 1:Which we do have a resource page on Ecclesia right. What is it?
Speaker 2:FresnoHelpscom and that's primarily for people in the Fresno area for domestic violence, to where you could get some safe housing but find a safe place and get out of that situation. You're not obligated to be in a place where you're going to be physically harmed. Second thing that I would do for a person in the church is visit that person with one or two other stoutly ministers to maybe lay hands on them with the five-fold. No, I would not. These are things like these are serious right. So if someone is physically abusive, I would not have any kind of church discipline. Again, I'm not encouraging divorce, but I'm not at all expecting a woman to be putting herself in an unsafe environment, and I'm just assuming it's a woman.
Speaker 2:There's definitely domestic violence on the other side of that as well, and so abuse is a huge reason. But if you're going through that, if you're experiencing that, you should seek help, you should seek safety and you should get other people involved. Do not feel ashamed of that. That person is in the wrong and they need to be called on that and they need to be confronted about their abuse. Substance abuse what do you think about that one? This is a big one. So my husband and my wife is an alcoholic. They're addicted to drugs. This is so.
Speaker 1:I would say go to your spouse. Well, the leaders in the church need to go to your spouse and confront your spouse on their abuse and assist them in getting help. If they choose to opt out and leave the church and do not want to get help, I would say divorce isn't always the answer, but separation could be an answer, removing yourself from the home if there is substance abuse going on.
Speaker 2:For sure, yeah, you don't want to be around substance abuse, especially if it's like illegal drugs or if there's kids involved and it's going to be unsafe for them. You got to work through those things. Definitely bring in other people. If this is people in our church, we'd definitely deal with this on a case-by-case basis. This is where a connection to a local community is definitely helpful, because we do believe in church discipline and so if there is a spouse or a husband or a wife who's struggling with substance abuse and this is just they haven't been able to work this thing out, this is something that we would intervene in and do an intervention and put somebody under church discipline for these things and help them get the help they need.
Speaker 2:Right, yeah, and discipline isn't like we're going to spank you. Discipline is for the restoration of a brother or sister who has fallen. And I think churches get that wrong, like oh, discipline, no, you're just going to spank people.
Speaker 1:It's like no, no, most of the churches just kick them out and disregard them and don't deal with the situation.
Speaker 2:Yeah, Another reason why people get divorced is because of spiritual beliefs, and so I'm a Christian who's married to a non-Christian. Maybe they got married like that, maybe one fell out of their faith, or whatever. They're no longer a Christian, but they're completely living two separate lives. One person is pursuing God and the other person is pursuing whatever else. But if you know how it is, if you're a Christian, if you're a real one, you really want to seek the kingdom. You're living your life according to the kingdom, and it's just going to be at enmity with somebody who has a different religion. What do you say about those who are in that situation?
Speaker 1:So the scriptures, I think, are perfect for those, if you want to just read that.
Speaker 2:So first Corinthians seven, verse 12. To the rest, I say this, not I, I not the Lord If any brother has a wife who's not a believer and if she's willing to live with him, he must not divorce her. So this is like, oh, but my wife, she's not this believer, she's living this different life and and I'm really trying to pursue God he says look, if you have a wife who's not a believer and she is willing to live with you, don't divorce her. If a woman, if a woman has a husband who's not a believer and he's willing to live with her, she must not divorce him. For the unbelieving husband has been sanctified through his wife. What does that mean? That they're saved, because I know that means because they're in this relationship.
Speaker 2:There is some sort of a sanctifying blessing of being married to such a person that has a relationship with God and the unbelieving wife has been sanctified through her believing husband. Otherwise, your children will be unclean, but as it is, they're holy. If the unbeliever leaves, let it be so. So in this case, he's not saying you should divorce a person, saying you should stay if they're willing, but if that person decides to be the initiator of the divorce or the leaving because You're following Christ, then let it be so. The brother or sister isn't bound. In those circumstances, god has called us to live in peace. How do you know, wife, whether you will save your husband, or how do you know, husband, whether you will save your wife?
Speaker 2:Yeah yeah, there you go and then okay. So we've talked about divorce proofing your marriage, going into your marriage. If you are seeking a spouse, like there's a lot of things that you could do to Evaluate before you get involved. Once you are married, there are certain things that you can do to divorce proof your life. One of those things would be removing the divorce word from the the equation. Like we don't have that as an option. That's just not an option for how we're gonna Solve any issues we will work through. We have just committed in this covenant that we will work through whatever we need to work through. That divorce is just not an option. We don't do that. The other thing is, like all these things money, you know how you're dealing with your selfishness, dealing with spiritual beliefs, but then what about people who have already been divorced? Okay, so this is in the whole group of people in the church who've experienced divorce and now they feel Like they're secondary Christians.
Speaker 1:I would say no, I mean that that's like me saying well, I mean bringing up my past in my past, sins, or just my past in general, my decisions, I've made them maybe effect?
Speaker 2:Yeah you are responsible for what you are responsible for, and even if you so you're not responsible for if someone is Leaving, right, it says even in here in 1st Corinthians if an unbeliever leaves, let it be so. The brother, sister is not bound. In such circumstances, I know personally friends who've been really contending for their marriages and their wife just will not like they should wanted to leave, and We've been encouraging our brother like this is not in your court. You're not bound in such circumstances. You are not condemned. There's no condemnation for those who are in Christ. You are not a second-rate Christian. You are only responsible for what you're responsible for, and so you need to walk with integrity as best as you can in your situation, get a good faith community around you.
Speaker 2:But I just know this if you are going through divorce have gone through divorce especially recently you need a faith community. The enemy is going to be attacking your mind. The enemy is going to be attacking your conscience. You will be struggling with self-doubt, with all of the insecurities, and I can tell you that I've seen healing, I've seen restoration of people who have experienced divorce that are in the context of the local church, and so no, you're not a second-rate Christian. You don't have to be defined by your decisions, by your past. This is where the grace of Jesus covers all things. Love covers a multitude of sins, even if it was your fault, even if you know, because I said, you're only responsible for what you're responsible. The assumption is, the other spouse is the one who wanted to leave, even if you were at fault. And now it's just, it's irreversible. You've done something to where it's. You know. There is no getting back. There is forgiveness in Jesus Christ.
Speaker 2:There is forgiveness, there is grace. This is the point of the cross. We bring nothing to this relationship of with Jesus except for our emptiness, except for our brokenness, except for all of our shame. And what he does is he covers us with his righteousness. That's not an excuse to say, oh, if I, if I'm just gonna sin, then you know the God will forgive me. Of course it's a serious thing, but if you have sinned, confess your sins. He's faithful and just. He'll forgive you, he'll purify you from all and righteousness. You don't have to be defined by your past.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and I think what happens too is a lot of people tend to fall in the category of making excuses. We all can make excuses for making the choices we've made, because we all have reasons of why we made those choices right, and, and most of the time we are thinking self-centered and Not based off of what God would have us do, and so that's, we all deal with that. And so the first step is to recognize like, hey, you know what they're according to scripture, according to like what I read, there was no excuse, and so just kind of releasing that to God too would probably be a lot of freedom in there.
Speaker 2:So a couple for me, a couple closing points. I was just looking up some different statistics and then, from this on, Closing.
Speaker 1:No, I had a really good passage in there.
Speaker 2:Oh, did you. Oh yeah, I did. Which one?
Speaker 1:So this one specifically, the first Corinthians 739, because there's a lot of people that say, well, it doesn't actually say in the Bible. You know that I have to marry a believer.
Speaker 2:Oh, okay.
Speaker 1:It does, and so I just wanted that you know. If you're looking for a spouse, don't? It's very clear in scripture, based off of this verse you need to be not unequally yoked. You need to marry someone that is of the Lord, that is a believer in the Lord, and no, you're not going to change them down the road. God doesn't tell you to do that, so he right.
Speaker 2:So the passage someone had mentioned before in 2 Corinthians 6, 14, it's don't be, do not be yoked together with unbelievers, for what do righteousness and wickedness have in common? Or what fellowship can light have with darkness? And so this is a very clear passage in 2 Corinthians, that believers and unbelievers don't mix. We're not supposed to be yoked together, we're not supposed to. A yoke is like something that they would have to oxen and they would have, they would tie them together with a yoke. If you are unequally yoked, you're going to be going in different directions. It's just, it does not work.
Speaker 2:And so someone had brought to our attention well, that passage isn't explicitly talking about marriage, it's just talking about just being unequally yoked in with unbelievers is like. Well, if it's talking generally, then of course it's applied specifically to the most important relationship that in that humans can be involved with. But this passage that Candace brought out was in 1 Corinthians 7, 39, which is more explicit about marriage, where it says a woman is bound to her husband as long as he lives, but if a husband dies, if the husband dies in this marriage, she is free to marry anyone she wishes, but he must belong to the Lord. So there you go, for those people are trying to skirt around the issue and like.
Speaker 2:Oh, that's not saying believable. There's your explicit he must belong to the Lord. Okay, so in Forbes they wrote an article after some studies they had done on divorce and they said that a majority of divorces are initiated by only one party, which is interesting. So it's not like a mutual thing. It's one of the spouses has initiated this with only 27 respondents and saying that it was mutual. So most divorces happen between three and seven years of marriage, which is very interesting. Give it some more time. We've been married what? 16 years now and I still feel like we have a lot to grow in just from hearing, seeing more the mature people who've been married longer than us. But man, three years is nothing. Seven years, like you were working through some serious stuff. We were working through some serious stuff at like year 10. And so people like, well, it's not worth it. It is so worth it.
Speaker 2:Yeah it is so worth it. I cannot. You're gonna be in. The grass is not greener on the other side. You feel like you're, oh, I'm just gonna get out of this situation and then find someone else and it's gonna be way better. You're gonna be you no matter where you go first off, and you're gonna be with a human being on the other side and the grass wasn't. What are you gonna do seven years from there? Well, you're gonna take the lessons that you learned from this relationship. How about you take the lessons you learned from this relationship and apply that to that relationship and persevere? So many people give up way too early. Between three and seven years is the majority of people divorcing. Only 4% of the couples in this study did divorce after 10 years. So if you make it just past that 10 years, there's this like 96% chance that you can make it 10 year mark was the hardest year for us, I think right, I don't remember it was.
Speaker 1:It was around there years yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, the 63% of divorced divorces believe that a better understanding of the commitment of marriage could have helped them avoid divorce. So they're saying exactly what we said going into the marriage. If they would have understand better what the commitment actually meant, it could have helped them in their marriage. And a lack of come? This is the last thing I wanted to do with. The lack of compatibility is the top reason couples divorce, with 59% of people divorcing in their first year, citing the lack of compatibility.
Speaker 2:I don't even know what that means. What do you mean? You're compatible what is that? Does that mean like you're, you know a square peg and she's around whole, or like they're not compatible? I don't understand the compatibility. How do you determine? Who determines that? How do you determine that? What's the meaning? You just? That's just something. You say we're not compatible. Why? Because we're fighting, because we have differences, because we haven't figured out how to communicate, because we don't understand one another. I say this thing and she just doesn't hear me. He says this and or I say this and he doesn't understand me. We just don't. We're like oil and water. Guess what that's marriage?
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:That's marriage. You learn to work through those things. It's very immature to say we are not compatible. You make it fit. This is not a one size fits all. I have a soulmate. The idea of this pagan idea of a soulmate means that I have a part of me that's lacking and there's another part, there's this other soul and we match together to make that. That's a pagan idea. There's no such thing as this soulmate or I married the wrong one. Do you know how you know that if you're married to the right one if they have a wedding ring, you have a wedding certificate they are the right one because they're the one that you're married to.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you can work through anything. You get all of the things we've talked about. Like you just figure out each other and you work together.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I don't even want to go through that list of why people are getting married, because it's just it. We've kind of already covered this. So this lack of compatibility, I think that's just something you have to get over. That's a very modern Western convenience that we have for no fault divorce. We just feel like we're not compatible. That has never been in society a reason why people get divorced. But because we live in the society we do, we make it so easy for people to get out for whatever reasons, and we don't have to bear with one another.
Speaker 2:So our encouragement to the three people if you are seeking marriage, if you want to divorce, proof your marriage, evaluate before you get involved, to understand that you guys have to be on the same page, at least in the fundamentals, the most important things, the superficial things, those are fine, those could get worked out. But do you have the same values, the same direction, the same spiritual beliefs, the same ethics, morality, all of those things? If you are already married, you can likely work through most situations. You do have permission to divorce for very few cases. But we should not be looking at the permission. We should be looking at the severity of what divorce means to God how serious marriage is what God has brought together.
Speaker 2:Let no man separate. We should not be seeking reasons to divorce our spouse. That should not even be in the equation. We should have the mindset of we will make this work, no matter what. Even if I hate you for the moment, for the season, even if I don't understand, if we don't understand one another, we're dealing with what we think is irreconcilable differences. I guarantee if you push through, if you persevere, you get a faith community around you who can support you and encourage you. You can work through almost anything. And if you are someone who has experienced divorce or are experiencing divorce, don't let that bring you down. There's no condemnation to you. There's forgiveness in Jesus Christ. You're not a second-rate Christian. You're not less than you can get through it.
Speaker 1:So just, I have a question for you. What do you say to the person that says, though God gave me a peace about it.
Speaker 2:I would say sleep on that peace, because I had a piece of pizza and I choose to feel a certain way. Sometimes too I'm being silly. Hebrews talks about the word of God is living, inactive and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing to the division of joint and marrow, spirit and soul, and is a discerner of the thoughts and the intent of the heart. What does that mean? I have all kinds of thoughts and intents of my heart. How do I discern between the thoughts and the intent of my heart? How do I pierce to divide between God's thoughts and my thoughts, between the spirit and just my soul, my mind? He says the word of God, so I can have a peace about something, but it will not be the peace of God if it is in contradiction to the word of God. And so God isn't going to tell you something that he already told you not to do so you can say, oh, I had a peace about it and it's in direct violation of the word of God.
Speaker 1:It's in the scripture that Moses gave them that he permitted them because of their hearts, the hardness of heart. So he gave them over to that. So I think that sometimes that peace will come from God handing you over to what he already knows you're going to do, if I want the peace of God, I will seek, I will call it the peace of God.
Speaker 2:If I want something bad enough, I will wrestle with God until he releases me to it and that releasing is going to feel like peace. I feel peace in my mind, but it's in direct contradiction to what God has already said in his word. It's not the peace of God, it's the peace of your own flesh and you need to submit that to the word of God. So that's it's harsh to say.
Speaker 1:And I know we're going over, but I have one more question. I'm sorry You've talked a lot. I just had a couple of things on my mind. Is what do you say to the person that says their spouse is narcissistic?
Speaker 2:I feel like we need to do a whole episode on narcissism. This is like because of mental health tick-tock and because of social media. There's all of these influencers that are self-diagnosing with all these mental health things and what they what. I've heard this in multiple cases. It's insane. It's always my experience. I'm a focus group of one.
Speaker 2:It's always the woman accusing the man of being a narcissist and it's always the woman leaving the man because, on the grounds of their diagnosis of the man being a narcissist, this has never been a professional being brought in and the clinical psychologist is saying you have clinical narcissism. This is always them looking at tick-tock, looking at social media, looking at research and finding out why do I feel this way in my situation? And then they're looking at the symptoms of narcissism and then, instead of applying anything to themselves, they're always looking at the other person and saying, oh my gosh, this is the reason. I've actually heard it. My husband is the reason for all of my unsatisfaction in my marriage because he is a narcissist and a narcissist can't change its bull crap. I think I don't know how else to say that this is a huge excuse. Do narcissists exist? Yes, why? Because humans are prideful. It's usually just pride. The wife might not be wrong in saying that my husband is a prideful jerk.
Speaker 1:But going through our past episodes though, talking about how you're finding your contentment and your joy and your satisfaction in Christ and being able to disconnect from each other and also connect and how you connect just all of the episodes we've already gone through I think that if you haven't applied any of that yet, then don't be so quick to judge your spouse and want to pull the card of narcissism and separate. Maybe get some counseling, some help first.
Speaker 2:But also, if we're talking biblical, there's no biblical grounds for narcissism to leave because of the narcissism oh yeah, no, and so is it an issue?
Speaker 2:Probably yeah. Is pride and arrogance and thinking highly of themselves, more highly of themselves than they ought to? Yes, is this painting someone else to be the victim or, I'm sorry, the bad person and you're the victim? Why? Those are real issues that people deal with. But to just paintbrush statement that they are a narcissist and because of that I'm going to leave is not wise, it's not mature and it's not actual clinical psychology.
Speaker 1:You're just self-diagnosing somebody based off of what you've seen on a blog post and ultimately, it's not biblical.
Speaker 2:So, with that being said, we love you guys and hope that you don't get divorced and yeah, I think that's it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, we covered a lot High five.
Speaker 2:High five yeah.